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Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang

+8
ha_na
Novice Learner
bullseye
Teller
Mubin Mustafa
charith666lk
Bullrunner7
EquityChamp
12 posters

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Go down  Message [Page 1 of 2]

EquityChamp

EquityChamp
Moderator
Moderator

You can learn lot from this writing. Read it to the end.



The reasons for losses are simple. In fact, there are only two root causes for investing losses, in my opinion:


  • Over estimation of one's ability to invest
  • Letting emotions, not processes, guide decisions.


These two reasons account for over-trading and loss aversion, which cause most of the damage for investors.

#1: Over estimation of one's abilities

There's a well documented cognitive bias called (Dunning–Kruger effect) which states that novices tend to be overly confident of their abilities.

This causes vicious cycles in investing, leading to losses. Here's how.


  • A novice investor opens a stock account, believing that he or she can time the market consistently due to over-confidence.
  • This bias toward market timing leads to over-trading, i.e. making more than the necessary number of trades
  • This leads to an unnecessary piling of trade commissions, as well as wasted time and effort staring at markets
  • This piling of transaction costs naturally causes a negative drift in the account.


Thus, if you take two average joes who start investing, the over-confident one will more likely lose money than the conservative one due to transaction costs.

And given the Dunning-Kruger effect, more often than not, most new entrants are over confident, and incur unnecessary losses due to transaction costs.

Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang FhIbegAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang Main-qimg-bcda4c58cbe4bf2360747e74497f3232?convert_to_webp=true

This perverse influence of Dunning-Krugger effect can be directly seen in retail investors' trading results.

As you can see, the average holding period for investors is probably at all time lows, not withstanding the effects of high frequency trading.

This means that the churn is at all time highs, and the same for transaction costs. This has been going on for multiple decades as brokerages have made it their bread and butter to encourage trading.

Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang GhxQRfFCdY6xPUAZZAcMH++5eFlxvH+hMnROePhCeZrk+s6zzDGYp1FnAMMilJWW1SVOEz4AysXV5qpLxZrAAAAAElFTkSuQmCCDo most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang Main-qimg-75aed46394d37dafd032173673599aec?convert_to_webp=true

Unfortunately, as I have written in the past, trading is akin to flying a plane in terms of the required degree of preparation and high stakes.

Thus, one could make an argument that all the negative media and frictionless trading (like e-Trade, Robinhood, etc) are probably really bad for investors.

#2: Letting emotions, not processes, guide decisions.

It has been well documented that investors tend to sell the low, buy the high, i.e. momentum chasers (in a negative sense).

One way to see that is to look at the net retail investors flows in/out of domestic equity funds.

As you can see, retail investors pulled out a record amount out of the markets in 2008 (at the peak of the crash), and put in the record amount in 2007 (right before the crash).

* The size of the red bar indicates the domestic in/out flow. Red is retail flow.

Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang UtpN10t1QSoAAAAASUVORK5CYII=Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang Main-qimg-0e32bcbeef99408ca4e0d85f4ce5e132?convert_to_webp=true

So basically, most retail investors get greedy and panic at inopportune times.

This is due to the basic fear/greed mechanism.

People (professionals included) tend to over-project their optimism when things are good.

And people tend to get depressed, bipolar when things hit the fan, leading to irrational actions.

And they let their emotional state project itself onto their investing decisions (as we see in the chart), leading to missteps.

Bullrunner7

Bullrunner7
Manager - Equity Analytics
Manager - Equity Analytics

Really helpful
Thank You EC !

charith666lk


Senior Manager - Equity Analytics
Senior Manager - Equity Analytics

Thanks EC. Really useful article.  Keep it up brother.

Mubin Mustafa


Assistant Vice President - Equity Analytics
Assistant Vice President - Equity Analytics

Good work EC..keep going.

EquityChamp

EquityChamp
Moderator
Moderator

Thanks everyone. If you guys can gain something and be a better investor tomorrow than today then my objective is achieved.

Bullrunner7

Bullrunner7
Manager - Equity Analytics
Manager - Equity Analytics

Definitely EC I entered this market when I was 17
And discovered this forum only a few months,now I'm 18 !
After reading your posts and advise I have learned as well as gained a lot!

EquityChamp

EquityChamp
Moderator
Moderator

Bullrunner7 wrote:Definitely EC I entered this market when I was 17
And discovered this forum only a few months,now I'm 18 !
After reading your posts and advise I have learned as well as gained a lot!

You mean at the age of 17 you have invested in stock market? Is it by your name?

Teller

Teller
Moderator
Moderator

Welcome bullrunner, some times you may become same like me. I entered to the market when I was 19th.
Every one tried to go universities after advance levels but I joined for a company as an accounts assistant .
Same time I completed AAT, then joined with London metropolitan university there I obtaing BSC in comp and information systems from Sri Lanka. Then I joined with SLIM , after that CIMA then certified investment advisor , now CPA..
What ever I earned I invest on shares,lands and my education.
How ever finally I believe Education is the best investment as knowledge is always money.
GL

bullseye

bullseye
Manager - Equity Analytics
Manager - Equity Analytics

wow teller...

Bullrunner7

Bullrunner7
Manager - Equity Analytics
Manager - Equity Analytics

No EC they would not let me register under my name.
My account is registered under my mothers name cause I was below 18 when I entered.
At 17 I started my CIMA and finished foundation and have F1 left in operation Level, I'm also doing my BSC in accounting and finance just finished my 1st year exams this May 16th.
My goal is to do my CPA !
100% true Teller education is extremely important !
I currently reading Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham !

Bullrunner7

Bullrunner7
Manager - Equity Analytics
Manager - Equity Analytics

I started with 30K
Now I'm at 55K !

EquityChamp

EquityChamp
Moderator
Moderator

Bullrunner7 wrote:No EC they would not let me register under my name.
My account is registered under my mothers name cause I was below 18 when I entered.
At 17 I started my CIMA and finished foundation and have F1 left in operation Level, I'm also doing my BSC in accounting and finance just finished my 1st year exams this May 16th.
My goal is to do my CPA !
100% true Teller education is extremely important !
I currently reading Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham !

Then thats ok. So you are very young. Good that you came here so early. I invite you to follow me for the next one year or so and learn. I am sure you also can be like me. This age is very good for learning kid.....Very Happy

Bullrunner7

Bullrunner7
Manager - Equity Analytics
Manager - Equity Analytics

Thank you EC and Yes I will be following you and Teller for the next couple of years to maneuver through the CSE !

Novice Learner


Equity Analytic
Equity Analytic

Teller wrote:Welcome bullrunner, some times you may become same like me. I entered to the market when I was 19th.
Every one tried to go universities after advance levels but I joined for a company as an accounts assistant .
Same time I completed AAT, then joined with London metropolitan university there I obtaing BSC in comp and information systems from Sri Lanka. Then I joined with SLIM , after that CIMA then certified investment advisor , now CPA..
What ever I earned I invest on shares,lands and my education.
How ever finally I believe Education is the best investment as knowledge is always money.
GL
Hi Teller, 

I want to follow Certificate in Capital Markets course offered by the SEC. the problem is that I haven't done A/L and don't have any other higher education qualifications either. do you have any suggestions? 

Thanks

ha_na


Manager - Equity Analytics
Manager - Equity Analytics

Regarding Dunning kruger effect;

His now famous paper, Dunning summarizes the effect as:
“…incompetent people do not recognize—scratch that, cannot recognize—just how incompetent they are,

He further explains:
“What’s curious is that, in many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious. Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge.”

At the age of 27, I graduated from faculty of medicine. I thought I know everything. Now I'm 41. How ridiculous I was at that prime age.
This is the 16th year of my trading of which 12 years as a forex trader. I'm doctor SPECIALIST in intensive care and I'm a PROFESSIONAL trader specialized in forex. Of which what is the most difficult discipline to master? Of cause it is trading. Of which what I love most? Of cause Forex.
Thanks. 
N.B

Eng Krishantha

Eng Krishantha
Expert
Expert

Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang C:\Users\KRISHA~1.COM\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001
 
 
Regarding ‘’Dunning kruger effect’’
 
I entered to the CSE year 2004 during my university period, i also thought that I have 100% confidence at that time like Dunning – Kruger Effect chart. Actually this is really nice Post and very interesting, I feel now I am in middle of the experience root. May be not yet.
I am very new to FOREX.
 
Thank you EC & keep it up.
 

Cheers

Novice Learner


Equity Analytic
Equity Analytic

Keep up the good work EC. thanks

VALUEPICK

VALUEPICK
Expert
Expert

EquityChamp wrote:You can learn lot from this writing. Read it to the end.



The reasons for losses are simple. In fact, there are only two root causes for investing losses, in my opinion:


  • Over estimation of one's ability to invest
  • Letting emotions, not processes, guide decisions.


These two reasons account for over-trading and loss aversion, which cause most of the damage for investors.

#1: Over estimation of one's abilities

There's a well documented cognitive bias called (Dunning–Kruger effect) which states that novices tend to be overly confident of their abilities.

This causes vicious cycles in investing, leading to losses. Here's how.


  • A novice investor opens a stock account, believing that he or she can time the market consistently due to over-confidence.
  • This bias toward market timing leads to over-trading, i.e. making more than the necessary number of trades
  • This leads to an unnecessary piling of trade commissions, as well as wasted time and effort staring at markets
  • This piling of transaction costs naturally causes a negative drift in the account.


Thus, if you take two average joes who start investing, the over-confident one will more likely lose money than the conservative one due to transaction costs.

And given the Dunning-Kruger effect, more often than not, most new entrants are over confident, and incur unnecessary losses due to transaction costs.

Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang FhIbegAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang Main-qimg-bcda4c58cbe4bf2360747e74497f3232?convert_to_webp=true

This perverse influence of Dunning-Krugger effect can be directly seen in retail investors' trading results.

As you can see, the average holding period for investors is probably at all time lows, not withstanding the effects of high frequency trading.

This means that the churn is at all time highs, and the same for transaction costs. This has been going on for multiple decades as brokerages have made it their bread and butter to encourage trading.

Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang GhxQRfFCdY6xPUAZZAcMH++5eFlxvH+hMnROePhCeZrk+s6zzDGYp1FnAMMilJWW1SVOEz4AysXV5qpLxZrAAAAAElFTkSuQmCCDo most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang Main-qimg-75aed46394d37dafd032173673599aec?convert_to_webp=true

Unfortunately, as I have written in the past, trading is akin to flying a plane in terms of the required degree of preparation and high stakes.

Thus, one could make an argument that all the negative media and frictionless trading (like e-Trade, Robinhood, etc) are probably really bad for investors.

#2: Letting emotions, not processes, guide decisions.

It has been well documented that investors tend to sell the low, buy the high, i.e. momentum chasers (in a negative sense).

One way to see that is to look at the net retail investors flows in/out of domestic equity funds.

As you can see, retail investors pulled out a record amount out of the markets in 2008 (at the peak of the crash), and put in the record amount in 2007 (right before the crash).

* The size of the red bar indicates the domestic in/out flow. Red is retail flow.

Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang UtpN10t1QSoAAAAASUVORK5CYII=Do most people lose money in the stock market? - A good work by John Hwang Main-qimg-0e32bcbeef99408ca4e0d85f4ce5e132?convert_to_webp=true

So basically, most retail investors get greedy and panic at inopportune times.

This is due to the basic fear/greed mechanism.

People (professionals included) tend to over-project their optimism when things are good.

And people tend to get depressed, bipolar when things hit the fan, leading to irrational actions.

And they let their emotional state project itself onto their investing decisions (as we see in the chart), leading to missteps.
Successful investors are taking losses periodically. Once they think that they are wrong they sell their bad eggs and buy future winners while keeping their golden eggs. Others sell winning stocks and buy losing stocks. 

Teller

Teller
Moderator
Moderator

Hi Mr.Novice,
I am really sorry to say that you will not have chance to enroll with out ALs or CIma operation level or AAT 2nd stage to be enrolled with certificate with capital markets.
I believe one lady was there name Mrs.sarojani , you can talk with her further.
GL

Novice Learner


Equity Analytic
Equity Analytic

Teller wrote:Hi Mr.Novice,
I am really sorry to say that you will not have chance to enroll with out ALs or CIma operation level or AAT 2nd stage to be enrolled with certificate with capital markets.
I believe one lady was there name Mrs.sarojani , you can talk with her further.
GL

Ok I understand. what if I start doing SLIM? do you think there will be a chance

Teller

Teller
Moderator
Moderator

No. SLIM is marketing management oriented course. No luck . let me talk with SEC and update you soon.

Novice Learner


Equity Analytic
Equity Analytic

Teller wrote:No. SLIM is marketing management oriented course.  No luck . let me talk with SEC and update you soon.
I really appreciate your help. thank you very much 

Bullrunner7

Bullrunner7
Manager - Equity Analytics
Manager - Equity Analytics

Novice Learner
How old are you bro ?

ramm


Stock Analytic
Stock Analytic

@Teller what's the speciality in CPA? You mean Australian CPA?

Jayashantha

Jayashantha
Senior Manager - Equity Analytics
Senior Manager - Equity Analytics

@ Bullrunner7. Your accomplishments at such a young age are absolutely impressive. I too am into value investing and reading The Intelligent Investor at the moment. If you're in the game for the long run, I'd like to have someone like you as an investment partner. My email address is rukmal.jayawardhana@gmail.com. I must also tell you that I'm not an HNWI or seasoned investor but believe strongly in disciplined value investing.

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